It’s NAKED Wheel of Time Reread Redux! Everybody HIDE!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 23 and 24 of The Great Hunt, originally reread in this post and this post, respectively.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Scheduling Note: Owing to vacation-y Labor Day type activities, there will be no Redux Reread post on Tuesday September 8th, but there should be one next Tuesday (the 1st). Mark your calendars!
Onward!
Chapter 23: The Testing
Redux Commentary
“To speak no word that is not true. To make no weapon for one man to kill another. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.”
Nynaeve shook her head. It sounded either like too much to swear or too little, and she said so.
“Once, Aes Sedai were not required to swear oaths. It was known what Aes Sedai were and what they stood for, and there was no need for more. Many of us wish it were so still. But the Wheel turns, and the times change. That we swear these oaths, that we are known to be bound, allows the nations to deal with us without fearing that we will throw up our own power, the One Power, against them. Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still stands, and we can still do what we can against the Shadow.”
I don’t think it’s been explicitly addressed in the series at any point, but when all’s said and done, I do have to wonder how much of the Shadow’s influence was involved when it came to the institution of the Three Oaths. My suspicion, in hindsight, was that it was pretty significant.
Certainly what we learn later about the origins of the Oath Rod ter’angreal(s)—namely, that they were used to bind criminals—suggests that someone had a deft hand for irony, and also an evil sense of humor, literally. In other words, I’m betting that someone (probably Ishy) on the Shadow side thought it was pretty damn funny (not to mention useful) to convince the Aes Sedai that the only way to keep the peace was to hamstring themselves and their own power.
There’s a whole debate to be had there, of course, over whether it was or was not a good thing to have the Aes Sedai’s power curtailed by the Oaths, but given the fact that the entire purpose of having the Oaths was to get people to trust them more, and the fact that that aim failed entirely, I’d say the whole thing ultimately did more harm than good. Tell me why I’m wrong!
Hastily [Nynaeve] removed her clothes, her shoes and stockings. For a moment she could almost forget the arches in folding her garments and putting them neatly to one side. She tucked Lan’s ring carefully under her dress; she did not want anyone staring at that. Then she was done, and the ter’angreal was still there, still waiting.
The stone felt cold under her bare feet, and she broke out all over in goose bumps, but she stood straight and breathed slowly. She would not let any of them see she was afraid.
We make a lot of fun of Jordan for how often he insists his female characters do things naked, and that criticism is warranted for (most likely) unintentionally sexist double standard reasons. Just saying, I highly doubt that, for example, the Whitecloaks have promotion ceremonies that involve getting their kit off, and no other male-dominated organization in WOT that I’m aware of ever makes that demand of its members either.
That said, it is also worth appreciating, as Jordan no doubt did, the psychological impact of nudity in terms of evaluating how a person handles stress. Basically, if there’s anything more effective in exacerbating the stress of having to face a threat, physical or otherwise, than having to do it while also being stark naked, I can’t think of it offhand.
That dream that most of us have had at one point or another about being called on in class and then realizing we’re naked/in our underwear? Not a coincidence that it’s one of the most common anxiety dreams in the Western world. Given our general cultural hang-ups and taboos about the human body and the display of it thereof, the connection between stress and unintentional/forced nudity is more or less inevitable. Clothes are armor, both literally and socially, and being forced to go without that protection would be highly unnerving to just about any of us.
Therefore, double standard aside, using it in an extreme stress test like that of the Acceptatron™ (awesome ter’angreal moniker of awesomeness copyright David Chapman, I believe) is entirely apropos. Doesn’t mean I still won’t snigger at it a little.
“I am Aginor,” he said, smiling, “and I have come for you.”
Her heart tried to leap out of her chest. One of the Forsaken. “No. No, it cannot be!”
“You are a pretty one, girl. I will enjoy you.”
Suddenly Nynaeve remembered she wore not a stitch. With a yelp and a face red only partly from anger, she darted away down the nearest crossing passage. Cackling laughter pursued her, and the sound of a shuffling run that seemed to match her best speed, and breathy promises of what he would do when he caught her, promises that curdled her stomach even only half heard.
I still agree with Past Leigh that the Forsaken in the first test ring should have been Balthamel instead of Aginor. Not only was Balthamel the one who actually attacked Nynaeve at the Eye, he was also the one who was supposed to be the big lecher/molester guy of the two, so this entire rapey exchange would have been far more fitting coming from him than Aginor, who is largely only characterized as Mad Scientist Dude. Not that mad scientists can’t also be creepy perverts, but you know what I mean. I basically regard the fact that it wasn’t Balthamel to be an uncorrected gaffe of the early books, even if it’s never been confirmed as such.
Both the second and the third test pass here, I felt, were masterful in how convincingly they made their case for Nynaeve to stay. I’ve said before that one of Nynaeve’s defining traits is loyalty, and given that, the second test in particular was tailor made to test her resolve. It would have tested mine as well. I’d like to think it would have tested anyone’s, but for someone like Nynaeve in particular, it would have been a torture to abandon a situation like that unchallenged, especially paired with the perception that it was her fault it had come about in the first place.
And oh, so diabolically clever to contrast that with the lure of the third test: simple happiness. I do love that Jordan left it entirely ambiguous as to whether the rings were actually meant to be a test of the testee’s resolve, or merely an offer to find an alternate universe in which either they can be the hero that saves their people, or live in a place where all their dreams have come true. I like that Nynaeve (and we) will always be left to wonder whether she would have lived a long happy life with Lan in Alternate Malkier if she had stayed.
Of course, there’s a fairly good chance she’ll have at least a mostly happy long life with Lan in Restored Malkier, now, so that’s some pretty good compensation as these things go.
Chapter 24: New Friends and Old Enemies
Redux Commentary
“But if you break too many dishes because you are daydreaming when you should be washing, if you’re disrespectful to an Accepted, or leave the Tower without permission, or speak to an Aes Sedai before she speaks to you, or… The only thing to do is the best you can. There isn’t anything else to do.”
“It sounds almost as if they’re trying to make us want to leave,” Egwene protested.
“They aren’t, but then again, they are. Egwene, there are only forty novices in the Tower. Only forty, and no more than seven or eight will become Accepted. That is not enough, Sheriam Sedai says. She says there are not enough Aes Sedai now to do what needs to be done. But the Tower will not… cannot… lower its standards.”
In other words, boot camp. Don’t even try to tell me it’s not.
And like actual boot camp, I am, like most civilians, alternately fascinated and horrified by its practices. It’s a sort of ethical/existential dilemma that I really don’t feel like I personally have an answer to. It seems impossible to deny that the crucible of deprivation and hardship burns away the bullshit to reveal a person’s true character and worth, but finding the line between tempering a person and simply torturing them is often damnably difficult to determine.
“She has a theory. She says we have culled humankind. You know about culling? Cutting out of the herd those animals that have traits you don’t like?” Egwene nodded impatiently; no one could grow up around sheep without knowing about culling the flock. “Sheriam Sedai says that with the Red Ajah hunting down men who could channel for three thousand years, we are culling the ability to channel out of us all.”
My knowledge of Mendelian genetics is waaaay outdated and vague, but assuming that channeling ability is a dominant trait (and really, why wouldn’t it be?), and especially if “learned optional channeling” is dominant over “spark-inherent involuntary channeling”, then I’m thinking that actually culling it out of the human race would be pretty damn difficult, especially if you’re not absolutely controlling who breeds with whom, as you would with, say, a flock of sheep.
Still, it’s a theory that sounds legit on the face of it, so it’s not surprising that some Aes Sedai would be using it as a political weapon against the Red regime, so to speak. Of course, that an argument I fundamentally agree with (a) is being wielded by a sister who later turns out to be Black and (b) turns out to be based on (probably) faulty science, is a tad disturbing, I will admit.
“The false Dragon!”
“He has been gentled, Egwene. He is no more dangerous than any other man, now. But I remember seeing him before, when it took six Aes Sedai to keep him from wielding the Power and destroying us all.” She shivered.
Egwene did, too. That was what the Red Ajah would do to Rand.
“Do they always have to be gentled?” she asked. Elayne stared at her, mouth agape, and she quickly added, “It is just that I’d think the Aes Sedai would find some other way to deal with them. Anaiya and Moiraine both said the greatest feats of the Age of Legends required men and women working together with the Power. I just thought they’d try to find a way.”
“Well, do not let any Red sister hear you thinking it aloud. Egwene, they did try. For three hundred years after the White Tower was built, they tried. They gave up because there was nothing to find.”
I have no doubt that Jordan intended that the greatest tragedy of the post-Breaking world was that men and women were no longer able to work together to achieve the great things that they did in more idyllic times. Whatever else I may have to say about his failures or successes regarding his portrayal of gender politics in WOT, it is worth remembering that Jordan constructed his imaginary world on the fundamental assertion that true harmony could only ever be achieved there when men and women worked together, as equals. Even if he stumbled on occasion in putting that into practice, that it is the premise of his world-building is still pretty darn awesome.
In league with that, shoutout to both of these chapters for being absolutely chock full of female characters passing the Bechdel Test, and even more of a shoutout for this being an entirely unremarkable occurrence in this series as a whole.
Despite herself, Egwene asked, “What do you see when you look at me?”
Min glanced at her. “A white flame, and… Oh, all sorts of things. I don’t know what it means.”
“She says that a great deal,” Elayne said dryly. “One of the things she said she saw looking at me was a severed hand. Not mine, she says. She claims she does not know what it means, either.”
A white flame, indeed. *sniffle*
Soooo, Elayne’s “severed hand” prophecy still ended up being Rand’s severed hand, right? Or did I misremember something from AMOL?
Assuming I didn’t, I still think this viewing was a bit wonky. Yes, Elayne would have cause to be concerned with Rand losing a hand, considering he’s her woobie and all, but given that she wasn’t even there when it happened, I still don’t see how Rand’s severed hand is relevant to her specifically.
*shrug* Another unresolved thread, perhaps.
I should probably give a shout-out to Gawyn in this chapter, for the sole reason that I think this is the last time in the entire series that he doesn’t at least partially piss me off. Why couldn’t he have stayed this cool and froody the entire series, I ask you? Sigh.
Well, we can’t always be really amazingly together guys, I guess, so here’s where we stop! Have a thing, and I’ll be back! Yay!
It could be a recessive trait (no reason to think it’s not, either) so…who knows, honestly. Isn’t that always the way of these types of things in stories? The Jedi/magic users/dragons, etc are weaker or less populous than they once were?
But do we ever get an answer as to if channeling has any kind of genetic component or runs in families? For example, is it considered unusual that both Morgase and Elayne are channelers (despite Morgase being fairly weak). Do we see patterns of inheritance in the Sea Folk/Aiel?
Then again, is it one of those soul rebirth things? Am I right in thinking that I remember a statement that the soul’s ability to channel is inherent in the soul, and so when the soul is reborn it is a channeled? Or am I completely making that up? And how exactly would that interact with genetics? (For that matter, are there ever any NEW souls?) Hmm…
I’d guess that the severed hand would be Mat’s Band of the Red Hand — I always imagined Rand’s hand as being destroyed/consumed by the fireball instead of severed…
You know, reading one of the quotes posted here brings me back to the time where “Why Sheriam became a Darkfriend” was a topic because her explanation was essentially handwaved as this “Seemed like it’d be cool to get more power-n-stuff…but I wasn’t expecting the dang Last Battle to happen during my (extremely long Aes Sedai) life!”
And right here, you have someone talking about Sheriam saying that the hunting of dudes who can channel is possibly culling the ability to use magic from everyone. BOOM! Perfect self-justified alibi ala Ingtar. Things are going badly on our front, so I’m switching sides to preserve what we have in the hopes of saving and/or improving it. A simple explanation that makes perfect sense as a motive.
Since the last three books, I’d think that Elayne’s severed hand really was the icon of the Band of the Red Hand. Since she took control over it for the last battle.
“The way back will come but once.” In the second or third test the way back comes and goes but Nyneve’s force of will makes it come back again, right? Or… is everything after the test, from her point of a view, a different reality or dimension or something?
I thought the severed hand was Gawyn splitting up from her. He swore he’d be her shield, her right hand, her protector. And for the entire series they’re apart (except for a bit in the beginning which doesn’t really matter and I guess they also meet in AMOL but even there he goes all warden and stuff – neglecting his first vow).
@6 – That’s also a very good explanation too!
Channeling is linked to the soul from rebirth to rebirth. Plus the body very likely needs correct genetic tooling as well because of the difference in the Q&A quotes between being burnt out, stilled, and what DO transmigration can/can’t do regarding Lanfear in particular.
Count me as among those who think that post Last Battle, the Aes Sedai should keep the Oaths in some form. I accept that I may be in the minority. Notwithstanding that the idea of using the Oaths in the first place may have originate with Ishy/Black Ajah, I think the Oath help distinguish Aes Sedai from other groups of channelers. IIRC, Siuan made this same point to Egwene when Egewne considered whether the Aes Sedai should remove the Oaths (when Egwene realized the consequences – from shortening ones life).
SilentPea @@@@@ 2 and mehndeke @@@@@4: I like your explanation of the severed hand Min sees in connection with Elayne represents the Band of the Red Hand. The banner of the hand would look like a severed hand (all red). How did I never think of that before.
This is not 100% a proper fit, but I think it somewhat fits since Min is talking about viewings she sees. I have a theory as to Min’s viewing of something being off with Aviendha’s children. I believe that some of the part of this “something different” was because her children were conceived so close to the Pit of Doom where the fabric of reality was at its most weakest. Throughout AMoL, we are told that time diluted greatly at just outside the Pit of Doom. I believe this time dilution somehow affected Aviendha’s children when they were in her womb. It is this affect that Min noticed (but could not pinpoint in her Viewing).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
Elayne has two people close to her with severed hands- Rand and Galad, too, though I always took this as a reference to Rand. I never thought of the Red Hand as a possibility, and though it’s interesting, I don’t think that the Band’s emblem has a ‘severed hand’ vibe to it. (I picture it more like the White Hand on Saruman’s warriors.)
Not sure the degree to which the ability to channel is inherited, but Androl clearly thinks it is. He tells Pevara that he came to the Black Tower because he always suspected he could learn to channel because his father could and that his father committed suicide when he started losing his mind rather than endanger his family.
At some point someone is astounded that one Sea Folk family has so many channerlers, think something along the lines of “Even daughter following mother was rare.”
At some point someone is astounded that one Sea Folk family has so many channerlers, think something along the lines of “Even daughter following mother was rare.”
Yep, that pesky oath rod likely benefited the dark side more than than Lightsiders. However, I agree with commenters who think a binding set of oaths for AS (known to the general public) will go a long way toward easing relations between those who wield magic and those who cannot. Not to mention keeping the bound AS honest in the face of serious temptation. The problem of shortened life spans for those bound needs to be addressed, though, ASAP. It would be unfortunate, at best, if that problem can’t be solved. I can certainly envision sparkers electing not to go to the WT for training due to shortened lives. If enough didn’t go, learned to channel effectively, and banded together against the WT for any of a variety of motives (good or bad)…I just don’t see it ending well.
Reading the link posted by CireNaes @8 reminded me of the many unanswered RAFOs hanging around out there. //Sigh// (And there doesn’t appear to be any genetic component in the ability to channel, per RJ’s answers in that Q&A.)
Nynaeve says she wants to make Moraine pay for what she did–twice in chapter 23. I think the outcome would have been much worse for the world if Mo hadn’t yanked the SBs and SGs out of the TR (with special emphasis on Rand). Waiting for Nyn to grok the big picture is making me *headdesk*.
As to that Acceptatron™ test:
Welcome, Sharina Sedai. It’s noted in my WoT spreadsheet, so I picked up on her introduction at this point during some previous reread, but it caught me off-guard this time through.
Nobody has commented on Nynaeve’s ability to channel without incident while in the Ter’angreal, and, perhaps more importantly, to summon the arch back using the OP after it disappeared during her 3rd test. Those accomplishments are astoundingly awesome, IMHO. Is that discussed in a later chapter? Don’t recall.
DXCrazytrain @5
I’m comfortable with the thought that Nyn returned to whence she started, but you bring up an interesting possibility.
@Ways
Read the section on Transmigration. There’s a report about halfway down that quasi-affirms a genetic component in addition to the definite soul trait of channeling.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=transmigration
@Moderator/Website Administrator
Safari suffers under the weight of your newfandangled website. Lots of hang and lag for initial loads (maybe too many trackers?) iOS is the same way. I also miss the desktop website link for iOS in the menu options. If that could be brought back I would appreciate it.
CireNaes @14
In all fairness, I did write “that Q&A” when I referenced your link. I was a bit surprised that no genetic component, weak or otherwise, was mentioned by RJ because there does seem to be a weak link at times. I’m missing the quasi-confirmation in the new link, but I’ll take your word for it. If you remember what number it was (RJ or BWS?), then I’ll take a look.
Ways @13 said: “I can certainly envision sparkers electing not to go to the WT for training due to shortened lives.” I disagree. I do not think it would impact as many sparkers as you think. Without receiving formal training, sparkers have only a 25% chance of survival. A Randland sparker is unlikely to go to the Aiel or Sea Folk to learn how to channel. They will not go to Seanchan controlled lands. The only option is to go to the White Tower. I would accept having a 200-250 year life span rather than hope for 500-600 year life span but only if I am the 1 in 1 out of 4 to survive.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
@Ways
Check out #8. Looks like RJ did affirm a soul plus genetics combo.
If each oath shortens lives, then why not make all oaths into a White Tower mission statement and have new aes sedai take one oath: observance of the three-fold statement?
IMHO the Aes Sedai have already lost the Oath battle. No one now really believes what they say, they always look for the twist. Do you think an Aiel doubts the statement of a Wise One? Or a Sea Folk doubts a Windfinder?
The way to get people to believe you is to act honorably, and to develop a reputation for acting that way.
Although the Aes Sedai are the dominant channelers in Randland, now that folks know there are others (Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders) I would be surprised if some women didn’t decide to start seeking others for help. I mean, the Aes Sedai have a pretty poor record here. While the Aiel and the Windfinders (and heck, even the Seanchen) have managed to save almost all of their sparkers from losing it, the Aes Sedai appear to save way less than that. The Aiel have an estimated 4800 channelers (12 Clans with around 400 channelers each. ) And all of Randland comes up with around 1000, ) Of course Egwene starts to improve this, but it would still make me think.
Aes Sedai are humans with human flaws and failings, and that’s as it should be. But chapters like “The Testing” remind me how much emotional strength and resilience each and every one of them must have, to be alive and Raised after such trials. I’ve wondered what some of the other interesting ones — Verin, Elaida, Cadsuane, Alviarin etc etc. — faced and overcame on their journeys through the Acceptatron (a test which I found more memorable than the one to become a Sister)
@@@@@18 That’s genius, but I doubt they would think of it, not least because while some Aes Sedi are now aware of a link between the Oath Rod and their shortened life spans, I don’t think they necessarily know that it’s shortened more with each oath taken.
@@@@@ 19 J. Dauro I agree they’ve definitely lost whatever good they’ve tried to gain from the Three Oaths.
Part of the problem with the Aes Sedi is the ancient “spirit of the law vs word of the law” debate. The second An Aes Sedi takes her oaths she starts thinking about how she can circumvent them. While a normal person might be capable of outright lying to you, most of the time people are going to talk to you normally. You can take what they say at face value until/unless they prove themselves to be unrealiable.
With few exceptions such as Anaiya, Aes Sedi all dissemble 24/7 even when they don’t have to. They never give straight answers to questions, they never tell people what they’re actually thinking or what their real goals are, and they manipulate or trick others into doing things form them when they might have gotten the same results (minus the resentment) from simply asking.
They’re like the skeevy politicians at a televised debate–a moderator asks them a question and they give a meaningless 5 minute speech about something else entirely without ever touching on the real subject.
Now I’m not saying these women start out this way. It’s just a psychological over reaction to losing the ability to lie. They obsess over it so much that they actually become less honest than they were before.
@@@@@20 AreonaGreenjoy The Acceptatron is an interesting concept. I personally don’t believe the alternate universe theory or even that the women survive. I think they die as soon as the machine fully powers down (That Nyneave was able to reopen it could be explained by the Aes Sedi not having ceased channeling into it on the other side yet..
I also think at least some of the girls who never come out failed to do so because they were killed rather than they wanted to stay. If I were somehow allowed to use it, with my luck I would step through and instantly fall into a pit of venomous spiders and be bitten to death before the gateway out even appeared.
I’m not sure about the others, but seeing Cadsuane’s test would be neat. I can’t imagine anything that could phase the woman by the time Rand and Co. meet her at 300 years old (especially since she broke Semirhage of all people).
CireNaes @17
Seals the deal, makes sense. Great research, I’m sure it took getting lost in cyberspace for a few minutes.
Even if channeling were purely genetic, it would be much more likely to be culled if it were a dominant trait than if it were recessive. See, if it were dominant then any woman who carried the gene (assuming it were only one gene) would be a channeler, and so would become Aes Sedai, and so not breed. Therefore no childbearing woman would ever have the channeling gene, and all the men with the gene would be gentled and die, so you’d quickly run out of carriers altogether, with the exception of: a) those the Tower missed for recruitment or gentling, b) those who had kids before being swept up, and c) the women who flunked out of the Tower and had kids afterwards.
“Dominant” does not mean “better” for genes.
retired PA so not an expert, but from what I know the culling could be explained by a 3 gene setup. As we now know not all genes are for traits, some are on/off switches, so one set of genes would determine when you were able to start channeling which would explain why channeling doesn’t start until the tweens. A second set set of dominant/recessive genes would allow you to touch the source and determine the strength, i.e. double dominant strongest, double recessive weakest. A final set would be, dominant can learn to use the source, recessive, you will touch the source. In that case the stilling of men (who would be almost entirely double recessive) would reduce the number of people who must touch the source and unless you ran a Seanchan style program where you test every one you would miss a significant amount of those who could learn, i.e. all of Egwene’s novices who appear when needed (improbable without a large pool of missed candidates to be Taverened into camp).
Why is Ny already remembering more than she should in the ter’angreal? At the AS test it makes sense because of her experience in TAR, but here she doesn’t have any training.
Why does Morgase like Elaida?
How did Gawyn meet Bunt?
If a male channeler is gentled before he develops OP addiction, will he still be suicidal?
“They’re always telling me to live my dreams. But I don’t want to be naked in an exam I haven’t revised for…”
Sorry, couldn’t resist! (From the “Fringe”)
Hi everyone, long time reader of the blog (I enjoy it a lot), first time poster.
This “culling the male channeleres” has been bugging me since it came up for the first time. My problems are:
1. Males tend to “spark” in older ages (Rand, who is the strongest possible channeler and therefore would spark early, started to channel at the age of 19). The spark manifests even at ages of 25-30 years. Therefore, even male “wilders” have possibility (as we saw some examples from the series) to have progeny – their genes stay in the gene pool! Not even mentioning the non-sparkers, who don’t channel at all, but have the ability. Perfect example for this non-culling is the family of Lord Algarin. Generations of “men with unmentionable problem”, in Tear, within the noble houses…
2. NONE of the aes sedai we saw had children (well, except Elayne). Yes, there are examples of aes sedai supporting their relatives, their genetic material, so to say (nieces, nephews…), but that’s not the same as having progeny. So the aes sedai have been removing themselves from the gene pool quite effectively, not the channeling men. Whether the gene-variant is recessive or dominant is no issue here.
3. Being reborn: channeling ability is both genetical AND bound to the soul (channelers are reborn as their own descendands? Quite funny :)). We do not know how often a soul is reborn, but we have Rand (after ~3000 years) and Birgitte (several times in a 3000 year span). And if you are reborn, it doesn’t matter that you had been gentled in your previous life, you’ll still carry the ability – thus screwing genetics over big time… :o)
Cheers!
Since no one else has commented it yet… I thought the whole Aes Sedai getting naked for important things thing was simply to prove that they were, in fact, female. I’m sure this was mentioned during one of the big meetings in Salidar where Egwene becomes the leader of the rebels.
@28 – that sounds right. Wasn’t it something like they started topless, but then they had to switch to full nudity because men would try to sneak in? Certainly more extreme than anything I can thing of as a real world analogue.
In in another vein, getting naked also provides an additional level of equalization. When you are at basic and you are stripped of clothing, you are all materially equal. There are no have and have nots. You have nothing you can hide. I don’t know if women have different privacy accommodations or not, but this serves to great effect in further reducing the men in the unit to a single baseline from which they are all built up (see also: haircut).
In Shara, channelers (Ayyad) are only allowed to reproduce with each other. And the males are forced to do so before being killed at age 21, or earlier if they start channeling. Someone evidently believes that the trait is at least partially hereditary.
@28: I remember that “proving-you’re-a-woman” thing being explicit in one Aes Sedai ceremony — raising an Amyrlin, I think? It was breast-baring at that time, said to have been full nudity in the past.
About the Oath Rod – It certainly seems like RJ is setting us up here to think “Oaths badddd. Dark One responsible”. But near the end of the series, is has moved more to “the Oaths are what make us Aes Sedai”. I don’t know if this is an RJ vs Brandon Sanderson thing, but there is something to be said for putting limits on those with great power, so I can see the merit here, even if it we wish it were not necessary.
On the culling theory, I’m under the impression that it was not Sheriam’s theory to begin with, but had been advanced by one of the White Ajah, and was then ceased upon over time by various AS based on their political leanings (i.e. they are opponents or allies of the Red Ajah). The novices & accepted may hear about it through Sheriam because she is the Mistress of Novices and the one whom they have the most contact with, but I don’t know that it is Sheriam’s theory or that even if she is one the main backers of it; or even if the Black Ajah is behind it. They would, of course, love anything that causes disunity in the White Tower, but the AS seem quite adept at that in their way quite apart from BA influence.
@RAAJPA
That pretty much fits with the interview database entry on rebirth (#34 in particular, among others). And there’s also a neat RJ quote (#14) that affirms the type of epiphany Rand had on Dragon Mount in addition to Rand’s final reluctance to squeeze the DO out of existence. When I read that moment in AMoL all I could hear in my head was Iago saying, “Squeeze him Jafar, squeeze him like a…” Poof of feathers, different ending.
Edit: To embed a link
Regarding culling, I think that Sheriam gets the idea from the Black Ajah as it is sure to anger the Reds, fitting with the “chaos in the tower” idea. My main idea has a couple of components. First, the standards set during the Age of Legends were very high. The entire world was connected, marriage for Aes Sedai was common, and there were no early deaths from war. There were many Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. Suddenly, the world is torn apart, and Seanchan, Shara, the Sea Folk, and the Aiel don’t sending people to the White Tower, and they’re not contributing to the Westland gene pool, isolating it and the White Tower. [I assume here that channeling requires recessive genes, and I’m using really simple genetics] Not only are there less Aes Sedai, they’re not marrying and passing on their double recessive genes. As the Age progresses, the number of “hidden” recessive genes decreases. Finally, the point that Sheriam makes in this chapter, there are no men channelers in the gene pool, because they are all gentled and die. Altogether, the only channelers are soul-based or got very lucky with their parentage.
@19 You also have to take into account that the Aiel and the Sea Folk both organize their society into groups that are centered around a woman who can channel, or one who is super close with a whole bunch of other women who are. Randland at large is spread crazy far and crazy wide, and the Aes Sedai are concentrated in one city.
Now, I’m not saying it’s not still their fault, because they could have been out and about actually Serving All, instead of getting all rich and stuff, but it’s pretty clear why the Aes Sedai suck at picking up girls who can channel.
Moderators – I have a question; why doesn’t this post show up in the Index? I almost missed it, had to click on Leigh’s name to find it. Thanks, R.B.
I echo Robert @35. And post #10 still doesn’t show up in the index. Time for a major web page code review?
Thanks, Neill
@35, 36 – Thanks for bringing this to our attention! I’ve forwarded this on to the appropriate folks so this can be fixed.
For more on Martin’s view of morality, be sure to catch Preston Jacobs’ current series on Youtube (mega spoilers).
Nakedness. Women. Double standards. It’s a bit of a reach for me. I can name countless rites and rituals that require Nakedness. There is nothing special about it. That it appears at all in these books is happenstance really. It is almost always tastefully done, the descriptions of the women are almost non existent to the point that the only time a womans physical characteristics are described, is usually when the women are clothed and usually a commentary about showing too much cleavage or the clothing being too tight or unseemly ensues. One of the few exception to that being Graendal and that’s just her sick evil shtick. Even Lanfear, described to be the most beautiful woman in the series, dresses conservative in comparison to an Ebou Dari woman.
In general women flaunt their beauty in modern culture as well as in the ancient past. It is a natural occurrence not particularly objectifying as the behaviour is perpetrated by women, most of whom are fully aware of what they do and what their intent is and how it furthers certain stereotypes. The fact that men find it agreeable bears no weight on the fact that women do behave in ways to attract as many men as they can and choose the one they like the most. Women want to be desired. I would go so far as to say that women want to be objectified. You look at American culture with Lady Gaga and Pink and even Mylie Cyrus who celebrate the empowerment that their sexuality secures. And that is Okay.
Men want women to see Superman when they look at them. And that is Okay too. Women appearing naked here and there in a sauna having a meeting or taking their clothes off for a ritual, doesn’t necessarily represent your typical exploitation of women, especially when Jordan isn’t particularly descriptive of naked women and generally describes the bark on a tree more thoroughly.
I’m repeating myself into circles now. I’m sleepy.
Nite.
Z
Playing catch-up at last. New job + full-time schedule = no time/energy, yay.
While it is odd it was Aginor Nynaeve saw in the first test rather than Balthamel, I can think of a couple reasons beyond “Jordan flubbed” and Aginor being the one to attack Lan. First there’s the fact that thinking Balthamel the lecher would be more appropriate is an example of metafictional thinking: namely, we had no idea (beyond a few veiled hints Aginor made) that Balthamel was a lecher until the Guide came out, which was long after this. So at the time we first read TGH, we couldn’t have had that knowledge to make us zero in on Balthamel. Just as if not even more important, Nynaeve wouldn’t have had the knowledge so as to think of/fear him.
Also, if we are going to allow knowledge we shouldn’t have had/didn’t have the first time around, I would point out that Aginor was described in the Guide as one of the most powerful of the male Forsaken, after Ishamael and on a level with Demandred (and Rand/Lews Therin). Ergo, seeing Nynaeve be able to put him on the run, attack him so fiercely, and be on the verge of finishing him off when the arch appears is just as indicative of Nynaeve’s incredible strength in the Power as the fact she was able to summon the arch back during her third test (or be able to channel inside the Acceptatron at all). So maybe that’s another reason Jordan chose him, assuming he was being meta about it.
Side note: Sheriam mentioning about novices never coming out again is a nice bit of foreshadowing (or a callback to what would end up happening chronologically earlier, but published later) of New Spring: Ellid’s disappearance in the other ter’angreal where the Accepted do the hundred weaves to become Aes Sedai. Though I imagine knowing novices who vanished is more likely to have happened under her tenure as Mistress of Novices, not when she was Accepted.
It is no surprise Nynaeve’s loyalty to the Two Rivers, and how hard she fought for respect and authority as such a young Wisdom, would cause her fears to manifest in the form of Malena, and all the awfulness back home somehow being her fault; what’s interesting is when we do end up seeing the Two Rivers later in TSR, things actually are bad, just in a different way thanks to Fain, Slayer and the Shadowspawn, and the Whitecloaks. And this time it’s Perrin learning of it and in a position to do something about it. It makes sense, since he’s the only one of the boys to consistently still feel attached to home and want to go back (Rand wants to, but knows he can’t) and is also overall very loyal. But it’s something he has in common with Nynaeve. I always thought it was rather a shame the two of them didn’t get to share more scenes; Perrin being so much more thoughtful and dependable than the other two would I’d think make Nynaeve be approving of him (or as much as any Two Rivers woman could be of a Two Rivers man), and a conversation between them about home, and how much they wanted to protect it and keep its people safe, would have been fruitful, I think.
I can’t help comparing the third test with Nynaeve’s test to become Aes Sedai in ToM; while I’m pretty sure we know Jordan intended that to be in the final book (which is why he wrote Moiraine’s test in NS, to give us a basis for comparison), I don’t know if he or Sanderson wrote the ToM scene. I suspect it was mostly Sanderson, but certain images and turns of phrase were very Jordanian. Anyway, the scenes were clearly written to parallel each other, and it’s painful and sad seeing here how happy Lan is, how much Nynaeve longs to stay with him, but knows she can’t because it isn’t real (ish…) and she has other duties and oaths to fulfill. Comparing this to the other test really shows how far Nynaeve has come by that point. As for prophecy, the return of Malkier and Sharina’s presence prove there is at least some true divination going on, but I agree that Morgase still being queen is as much a part of the testee’s expectations as Egwene thinking she has the ageless look despite not having held the Oath Rod.
Speaking of the Oath Rod, I’d say it’s pretty much a given that Ishamael is responsible for that. Not only is he the only one left from the Age of Legends who could have known of binders and what they did, but he had a vested interest in employing one beyond trying to undermine the Tower: namely, getting the Aes Sedai to swear oaths on it allowed him to hide the Black Ajah among them, since otherwise the oaths they swore to the Dark One would have given them away in two seconds flat.
Nothing really to add on the nakedness issue; it’s a bit too titillating and naughty, and funny enough to poke fun at, but the connection between it and vulnerability/stress/danger is apt and well-articulated. Not to mention symbolic, of course.
Whether or not the genetics fit, it does seem quite logical that killing off all the channeling men (either directly or through them wasting away/committing suicide after being gentled) would be removing a big source of channeling in the population. Unless the Pattern just spontaneously makes women have channeling children, of course! The fact Sheriam is the one to reveal it doesn’t really mean much; not only do we know she joined the Black just for political power, not because she actually believed in the Shadow/the Dark One and their causes, but a Shadow channeler would have just as much reason to be concerned about channeling dying out as anyone else. There’s no reason Sheriam couldn’t have learned about such things and taken them to heart before joining up.
Side note: people have mentioned before how annoying it is that Egwene learns here Rand wasn’t making it up that he’d met Elayne, yet never apologizes to him about it later. While it’s true this is probably a mark of her arrogance/inability to admit she’s wrong, I would point out that a lot happens after this, and by the time she sees him again that’d hardly be the most important thing on her mind (next she sees him is at Falme after he fights Ishamael and is revealed as the Dragon Reborn; then after that it’s the Stone and Callandor–not exactly the time to say ‘Oh by the way, sorry I accused you of making up you’d met the Daughter-Heir).
The fact Egwene is the one to bring up the possibility of an alternative to gentling is pretty important. On the surface of course she’s concerned for Rand and wants to make sure he won’t meet that fate–which is itself important, since she sticks to that belief later on even when she’s Amyrlin and dealing with the fallout of his bad decisions and what Elaida forces him into. But the very fact she’s mentioning this in the context of Logain is some beautiful foreshadowing of her dealing with Rand’s amnesty and what to do with Logain once he’s Healed by Nynaeve. It fits together too well, this has to be another thing Jordan planned.
And it certainly fits with the idea of doing away with the tragedy of men and women no longer being able to perform feats of the Power together, since after all any future alliance between White and Black Towers could not have happened if Egwene hadn’t released Logain. Not to mention she’s the one who orders Aes Sedai be sent to the Black Tower to bond Asha’man, in recompense for what Logain did to Toveine’s group, a move that will only facilitate male and female channelers coming together again. Yay for Androl and Pevara, showing us how these wonders (and all new ones!) will be a part of the Fourth Age!
Gah, more foreshadowing! Here we all thought the white flame Min saw was just symbolic of the White Tower, but now we know it’s a much more specific, powerful, and significant flame… As for the severed hand, I’d posit the notion it’s referencing Galad. Yes he lost his whole arm, but maybe at this point Jordan hadn’t decided how much flesh he’d lose, or that exact scene was decided and written by Sanderson only. Regardless, I would say such a terrible injury happening to her own brother (even the one she cared less for) is certainly something relevant to Elayne! And unlike with Rand, she actually was nearby (at least on the same overall battlefield anyway) when Galad faced Demandred.
No, Gawyn is still likable in TDR, when he and Galad have their sparring match with Mat, and also the way he teases and plays with “Elmindreda”. I think some of that even continues into the start of TSR.
His little speech about Rand is one I’d forgotten, and it’s a bit startling too. Not for the extremely heavy-handed foreshadowing on all their lives being changed by having met him (I see people in Randland are as likely to be correct when being sarcastic/throwing out wild, “unbelievable” suggestions as Ron Weasley in the Potter books), but the simple fact Gawyn is aware of Almen Bunt at all, let alone his role during the unrest in Caemlyn. Because that was a case of characters crossing paths I never expected. It’s too bad Gawyn didn’t remember things like this later, when he was hating Rand. Also, how ironic: I remember that when Almen and the other farmers came down from the hills and joined the Dragonsworn, their camp was marked on a map that Gawyn saw in Bryne’s tent…yet he had no idea the very same man he spoke of way back in TEotW was in it!
And speaking of surprise meetings, who could have thought at this point what Elaida and Egwene’s relationship would become? “Egwene, this is Elaida a’Roihan, your future abuser, lasher, and captor. Elaida, this is Egwene al’Vere, the Aes Sedai who will succeed you as Amyrlin when you get made a damane by the Seanchan!”
But yes: I always liked Elayne from the moment we met her in TEotW, but I think her likability is cemented even more in these scenes in the Tower.
@1 Lisamarie: Vandene and Adeleas are both channelers. Also to quote the WOTFAQ: “Elayne is related to Moiraine, through Taringail. In TPOD, we meet three Windfinders who are all related; Caire and Tebreille are sisters, and Talaan is Caire’s daughter. [But] Galad, Luc, Tigraine, and Janduin are all related to Rand, and none of them can/could channel. Aviendha has a sister who cannot channel, while Mat has a sister (Bode) who can. Elayne’s brother Gawyn cannot channel, Egwene’s parents cannot channel, and so forth.”
@3 R0bert: Good point!
@9 AndrewHB: That’s an extremely original theory! What do you posit it means–they’re actually older/younger than they appear? Or something with deeper ramifications?
@10 dreamweaver: Speaking of the Black Tower, recall Emarin/Algarin, who took the name of his channeling brother whom Cadsuane had helped catch and gentle.
@13 Ways: Re: Nynaeve as Wonder Woman, I don’t believe it is mentioned again (other than, perhaps, in connection to Egwene commenting on how powerful she is and why that was proof she shouldn’t have had to take the Aes Sedai test in ToM). It really just serves to show how powerful she is, as you said.
@14 J. Dauro: Right with you on the First Oath, but do you think the Second and Third are just as irrelevant and useless? While it’s true the Third can make for some frustrating situations where sisters won’t act until they absolutely must, I’d think knowing they can’t act unless threatened directly is actually rather important in how others view them. Though to be fair, while Galad uses that exact argument to persuade his Whitecloaks not to attack the Aes Sedai with Perrin, this is a case where people believing in one of the Oaths actually could have turned out bad for Team Light. Plus the Whitecloaks wouldn’t even believe it until Galad proved it to them (though that probably says more about them than what Randlanders in general think of the other Oaths).
@20 AeronaGreenjoy: I have to wonder that myself!
@21 wcarter: They don’t, but there’s someone still alive who has that knowledge: Rand. Assuming he ever meets up with Elayne again, which he surely will…also, there’s Compelled Graendal who could tell Aviendha.
Also, what about the possibility the Acceptatron leads to a bubble of TAR or something like it? The Aes Sedai testing ter’angreal is very much like TAR in that the sisters can influence what appears inside (and Egwene specifically says it is like it to explain why Nynaeve, who has so much experience in TAR, could “break” the test), and the Acceptatron seems to have something similar based on how it reacts to Nynaeve and Egwene’s thoughts and expectations. It’s just that instead of constantly reacting the way TAR does, it seems to draw them from the tester as she enters, and is then set in place for the duration of their stay, barring enforced changes like Nynaeve calling the arch back. I seem to recall it being stated somewhere that both ter’angreal are essentially TAR-training guides for novice channelers. But then that means they are merely bubbles which imitate it, so I don’t think the bubbles could continue existing independently once they were shut off, or the people within them.
@25 birgit: All riddles for the ages, especially that second question!
@29 RanchoUnicorn: Another good point.
Also, the real world analogue in this case is the legend of Pope Joan.
@30 AeronaGreenjoy: Yes, it’s raising an Amyrlin–we get to see it twice, in LOC and TGS.
@39 Zexxes: I don’t think I’d go so far as to say women want to be objectified (though it can certainly seem like it at times, but that’s as much a function of what society has told them is appropriate and right as their own desires, which is a big part of the problem), but there’s certainly some truth in the idea that some women, at least, see taking hold of such standards of beauty or the feminine form and making them their own as an act of empowerment. And the rest of what you say is quite right.
I’m confused now, how was Ishy around for the whole Oath Rod influence-thingy? I thought he was cryogenated at the time of the sealing of the bore. I must be misremembering something huge.
As someone that went through Bootcamp. It is a nessecity to be hard. We are broken down to base components and rebuilt stronger, and harder, but mostly stronger.
It IS harsh, but a soft metal is useless in battle.
While I was an NCO, there were changes made to bootcamp, nicer, not as harsh, less swearing and breaking down of recruits. It did not make as capable of soldiers. We had kids come to our units that A: had no esprit de corps because they really hadn’t weathered the storm together, B: kids that were not able physically or mentally or emptionally able to handle war, and C: completely helpless in some ways.
It is a harsh nessecity of those fightong a war that they must be remade first, but a nessecity none-the-less.
As far as the Oaths, I think in THAT age, where there was rampant distrust of channelers, because of the taint and the (recent? Ish?) battle against the Dark One that there HAD to be oaths. In a future age no, and Logain and the Black Tower are already now starting to overcome that distrust, but they were needed for 3rd Age.
@41 thepupxpert: Ishamael was only “partially sealed” in the Bore. He was thrown out periodically, then eventually drawn back in again on a regular cycle. The times for sure we know he was out was during the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing’s later reign before the War of the Hundred Years. Ishy says he created the Black Ajah (and the Companion confirms this), and that was during the Trolloc Wars, hence how he could have encouraged the use of the Oath Rod and how well the timing works.
Except it’s entirely wrong as proven in the later books when Salidar ends up with more novices than there are existing Aes Sedai. The real reason the Tower is empty is because they don’t recruit. They gather up the sparks but the ones that can be taught are not sought for, instead they rely on people to work up the courage to go to the Tower voluntarily, and of those most of them can’t be taught anyway. If they sent Aes Sedai out to the towns and cities and set up recruitment centers, the Tower would be full to bursting just like the Wise Ones,/Sea Folk,/every other channeling society that isn’t 1/3 Darkfriends by volume.